I sometimes feel lucky to have been raised Catholic, and so didn't get any high pressure tactics from creepy church ladies. It was all catechism class and ritual. No dramatic conversion. Even the eventual confirmation ceremony was just ritual. You just had to know the right words and do the right thing, all provided for ahead of time. The worst experience I had was a new strict priest coming in and holding everyone back because he didn't feel like we were properly indoctrinated. (My parents just switched me to a different diocese.)
Of course, except for a few half hearted attempts, I pretty much lapsed after confirmation and never really went back. So from the perspective of a religion, maybe the high pressure approach has a better success rate. And obviously the Catholic church has its own well publicized nightmares.
I think I would have preferred Catholicism too, at least on an aesthetic/ritual level. I recall going to some Catholic service or other with friend in middle school and finding the rituals a bit nerve wracking, just because I was an outsider and didn't know what to do, but overall everything felt...appropriate. I kept looking at the confession booth—to me that's one of the more interesting parts of it. Not that I have anything to confess! ;)
I think the high pressure scenario works well only in a tiny number of cases where the person showed up of their own accord because their life is in shambles. But it can be hard to determine who these people are when you have members of your congregation doing outreach and bringing in people who may not really want to be there—most likely a partner of a member of the congregation. This can be a really bad scene when you combine an agnostic or atheist partner of a church member with a high pressure scenario! I think even if I were religious, I would be very careful about bringing my partner with me, as a bad experience could make things really terrible for the relationship and conversion even less likely.
I actually found the rituals mind numbingly boring. I think my mom found comfort in them. And maybe I would have if I'd kept going into adulthood. But as a boy I couldn't wait for it to be over.
I can see the nerve wracking aspect. I went to a funeral mass as an adult in a different state and after not having been to mass in several years. Things had changed, and I was worried I'd mess up the communion. I realized it was dishonest to keep acting like I was still Catholic. I was only doing it to keep up appearances for older relatives anyway. Now if I attend a mass (usually for a funeral or wedding) it's as a visitor.
The high pressure thing probably works better on children. Once you're in teenager mode, I can see it going wrong pretty often. Although like you said, if someone is there voluntarily and in the right mindset, it probably feels different. I'm pretty sure today I'd just get up and walk away.
Ah, the Christian stuff in your book and this chapter makes sense now. I figured it had to be personal somehow. I was raised by a Lutheran minister and a church choir director. Both were free enough thinkers that during my vehement atheism stage in high school all I ever got was disappointed tolerance.
The stories I hear from others make me realize just how comfortable, supportive, and easy my upbringing was. Not that I don't have some complaints, but I clearly lucked out in the parental lottery.
It really is a lucky thing you were given some intellectual breathing room, especially in those circumstances.
I feel pretty lucky as far as my parents go too. My mother went to a Korean Presbyterian church and was very much involved in it, and while I did go with her, I mainly hung out with the janitor and explored the building or wandered around the graveyard beside the church (things were different back then...children had so much more freedom from parents!) Anyway, my father insisted that I NOT be baptized until I was able to make up my own mind. Good call, dad! But the culture around me was far from moderate, as is evidenced in this tale. I had friends in high school whose parents made them miserable with their religious beliefs, and they rebelled against it in sometimes unfortunate ways.
From the stories you've told, it sounded like your upbringing was pretty good, too. From what I've read (for instance, here in Substack Notes), lots of people weren't so lucky. Calls to mind the thing about how you need a test and a license to operate a car but not to be a parent.
Interesting that you're hearing stories about this in the Notes section here. I haven't read much of a personal nature there. Then again, I don't spend much time on Notes...still in need of a social media instruction manual I guess.
I can't imagine how I would've turned out had my parents been less tolerant. My rebellion against religion may never have ended.
My observation has been that staunch atheists are often "escaped" from a fairly hardline religious past. I often get the impression they've only switched the polarity (so to speak) of their strong belief. (And obviously, committing to God's non-existence is just as much a belief -- a faith -- as committing to His existence. Agnosticism is the only intellectually coherent position.) So, you're probably right about not so much to run from with a lighter hand. In my case, my atheist phase only lasted through high school (teenage rebellion mostly), and I eventually developed my own spiritual synthesis.
I'm still battling my Notes addiction. It has made a mess of my productivity. I'm now recognizing it as a problem I need to take seriously and deal with. But, yes, there are many living out past and current personal trauma (and triumph) on Notes. It's an odd combination of free speech therapy and "hey, look at me!"
And, fuck, but it's added an unwanted mental daemon that's constantly notifying me, "Hey, that thing you just said/wrote would make a good Substack Note." 😣
I knew you'd be prolific on Notes from the way you incorporate them in your blog posts. Whereas I just have random thoughts then promptly forget them. :)
I remember how you thought so. You were quite right, but it was a little too attractive. Yeah, I’ve been making notes since high school, so it’s an ingrained habit now.
(Mostly because, as you say, they’re so easy to forget. I want one of those writing boards divers use to communicate underwater. I get too many ideas in the shower but forget them by the time I get to one of my many notepads.)
I sometimes feel lucky to have been raised Catholic, and so didn't get any high pressure tactics from creepy church ladies. It was all catechism class and ritual. No dramatic conversion. Even the eventual confirmation ceremony was just ritual. You just had to know the right words and do the right thing, all provided for ahead of time. The worst experience I had was a new strict priest coming in and holding everyone back because he didn't feel like we were properly indoctrinated. (My parents just switched me to a different diocese.)
Of course, except for a few half hearted attempts, I pretty much lapsed after confirmation and never really went back. So from the perspective of a religion, maybe the high pressure approach has a better success rate. And obviously the Catholic church has its own well publicized nightmares.
I think I would have preferred Catholicism too, at least on an aesthetic/ritual level. I recall going to some Catholic service or other with friend in middle school and finding the rituals a bit nerve wracking, just because I was an outsider and didn't know what to do, but overall everything felt...appropriate. I kept looking at the confession booth—to me that's one of the more interesting parts of it. Not that I have anything to confess! ;)
I think the high pressure scenario works well only in a tiny number of cases where the person showed up of their own accord because their life is in shambles. But it can be hard to determine who these people are when you have members of your congregation doing outreach and bringing in people who may not really want to be there—most likely a partner of a member of the congregation. This can be a really bad scene when you combine an agnostic or atheist partner of a church member with a high pressure scenario! I think even if I were religious, I would be very careful about bringing my partner with me, as a bad experience could make things really terrible for the relationship and conversion even less likely.
I actually found the rituals mind numbingly boring. I think my mom found comfort in them. And maybe I would have if I'd kept going into adulthood. But as a boy I couldn't wait for it to be over.
I can see the nerve wracking aspect. I went to a funeral mass as an adult in a different state and after not having been to mass in several years. Things had changed, and I was worried I'd mess up the communion. I realized it was dishonest to keep acting like I was still Catholic. I was only doing it to keep up appearances for older relatives anyway. Now if I attend a mass (usually for a funeral or wedding) it's as a visitor.
The high pressure thing probably works better on children. Once you're in teenager mode, I can see it going wrong pretty often. Although like you said, if someone is there voluntarily and in the right mindset, it probably feels different. I'm pretty sure today I'd just get up and walk away.
Ah, the Christian stuff in your book and this chapter makes sense now. I figured it had to be personal somehow. I was raised by a Lutheran minister and a church choir director. Both were free enough thinkers that during my vehement atheism stage in high school all I ever got was disappointed tolerance.
The stories I hear from others make me realize just how comfortable, supportive, and easy my upbringing was. Not that I don't have some complaints, but I clearly lucked out in the parental lottery.
It really is a lucky thing you were given some intellectual breathing room, especially in those circumstances.
I feel pretty lucky as far as my parents go too. My mother went to a Korean Presbyterian church and was very much involved in it, and while I did go with her, I mainly hung out with the janitor and explored the building or wandered around the graveyard beside the church (things were different back then...children had so much more freedom from parents!) Anyway, my father insisted that I NOT be baptized until I was able to make up my own mind. Good call, dad! But the culture around me was far from moderate, as is evidenced in this tale. I had friends in high school whose parents made them miserable with their religious beliefs, and they rebelled against it in sometimes unfortunate ways.
From the stories you've told, it sounded like your upbringing was pretty good, too. From what I've read (for instance, here in Substack Notes), lots of people weren't so lucky. Calls to mind the thing about how you need a test and a license to operate a car but not to be a parent.
Interesting that you're hearing stories about this in the Notes section here. I haven't read much of a personal nature there. Then again, I don't spend much time on Notes...still in need of a social media instruction manual I guess.
I can't imagine how I would've turned out had my parents been less tolerant. My rebellion against religion may never have ended.
My observation has been that staunch atheists are often "escaped" from a fairly hardline religious past. I often get the impression they've only switched the polarity (so to speak) of their strong belief. (And obviously, committing to God's non-existence is just as much a belief -- a faith -- as committing to His existence. Agnosticism is the only intellectually coherent position.) So, you're probably right about not so much to run from with a lighter hand. In my case, my atheist phase only lasted through high school (teenage rebellion mostly), and I eventually developed my own spiritual synthesis.
I'm still battling my Notes addiction. It has made a mess of my productivity. I'm now recognizing it as a problem I need to take seriously and deal with. But, yes, there are many living out past and current personal trauma (and triumph) on Notes. It's an odd combination of free speech therapy and "hey, look at me!"
And, fuck, but it's added an unwanted mental daemon that's constantly notifying me, "Hey, that thing you just said/wrote would make a good Substack Note." 😣
I knew you'd be prolific on Notes from the way you incorporate them in your blog posts. Whereas I just have random thoughts then promptly forget them. :)
I remember how you thought so. You were quite right, but it was a little too attractive. Yeah, I’ve been making notes since high school, so it’s an ingrained habit now.
(Mostly because, as you say, they’re so easy to forget. I want one of those writing boards divers use to communicate underwater. I get too many ideas in the shower but forget them by the time I get to one of my many notepads.)